License transfer thoughts. secondhand addons?!".

[Mike... 7]

There has been a lot of discussion about piracy over the past days, which got me thinking about what I'm about to tell you.Who here has a payware addon not being used? I know I do, several even. Some addons I wouldn't mind donating, others I would like to sell for a fair price. Now, in other fields it's quite common for there to be a secondhand market, but not so much in the software industry or addon business. Add to that the fact that addon prices rarely seem to drop from their original starting price. And maybe you've got an unhealthy situation?What if we were to come with a license transfer system of some sort? Would that perhaps deter some people from piracy? As well as give some of us the opportunity to "get rid of" unused addons and see them being enjoyed anew by others?Some EULA's cover license transfer, but from my own experience I know that such requests are often ignored. Developers and online stores do not seem to facilitate it at all. It would be great if devs give this some thought and if online stores like SimMarket (where I do most of my shopping) offer the ability to transfer orders from one account to the other. Without online stores/distributors onboard, this is not gonna happen. There needs to be some kind of middle man. (Think very small percentage. ;p)It could be simple, remove an order from my account and with it the ability to download a product or see its key if applicable. Add the order to the other guy's account. Perhaps the system could automatically issue a new key, making my key unusable. Naturally there are those who would continue using the product anyway, but such concerns exist with Flight 1's 30 day return policy as well, don't they? There may be other issues and I'm not here to present every angle, but I think this could work and I would like to hear some first thoughts from "sellers", "buyers", and middle men.

[tf51d 284]

This is a non starter! There are too many logistical and legal hurdles to jump through that it wouldn't be worth it. I don't think AVSIM would want to be involved in this either. Too much liability exposure!

[Mike... 7]

This is a non starter!

Well, aren't you the optimist...Who said anything about Avsim? They would not be involved in any way, unless the Avsim store chose to participate. And would you care to elaborate on the logistical and legal hurdles?It would take some changes to online stores, maybe a database change here or there. It would obviously require said stores to do something, but as I mentioned, there would perhaps be something in it for them, albeit a small percentage. Both "seller" and "buyer" would need ("verified") accounts at participating stores. Products with EULA's that do not allow for license transfers would obviously not be accepted. Where there is room for transfer, the dev would give the store final permission. So if there are any objections, a certain product would simply not be transferable.And since most real sales apparently happen in the first few months after a release, see recent "virtuali" posts in this forum, then simply ban recently released addons from being tranfered. Say three or six months, this way the secondhand market would not affect the firsthand one too much.I wonder what other hurdles there are?If they want to, they can pull this off. But it seems that as of late, developers concentrate most of their time and effort, apart from developing of course, on negativism.Just an :(.

[N60JBravo 27]

My initial response to your suggestion is that you are asking businesses to do more work for less money.And I doubt it would make a significant dent in the amount of active piracy.Just my two percent of a dollar here.Joe

[Mike... 7]

My initial response to your suggestion is that you are asking businesses to do more work for less money.

More work? Apart from initial changes and some overseeing later on, I don't see what else they have to do? And again, small percentage. Or in case of say eBay, lots of small percentages. ;D I think it takes more time and money to create draconic anti-piracy measures and what you get in return for that, well, not a whole lot, IMHO. Don't think any realistic approach will make a big dent.But to be clear, this isn't about stopping piracy or about making money, but about something positive for us legitimate users.:(

[N400QW 205]

Your ideas about a "secondary market for software" which is what you are advocating was covered at the advent of software development and was considered a non starter then and it appears there is little support in the industry for a change in direction these days. :(

[WarpD 824]

More work? Apart from initial changes and some overseeing later on, I don't see what else they have to do? And again, small percentage. Or in case of say eBay, lots of small percentages. ;D I think it takes more time and money to create draconic anti-piracy measures and what you get in return for that, well, not a whole lot, IMHO. Don't think any realistic approach will make a big dent.But to be clear, this isn't about stopping piracy or about making money, but about something positive for us legitimate users.:(

Just FYI... it would be a release of ownership if we allowed a thirdparty to sell the product as if it were their own.Also... overhead for tracking of eBay transferred licenses has a cost... where does the developer recoup that?

[Mike... 7]

Well, the devs would get a percentage of the middle man's percentage.

Your ideas about a "secondary market for software" which is what you are advocating was covered at the advent of software development and was considered a non starter then and it appears there is little support in the industry for a change in direction these days.

I can't help but wonder why it was discarded and to what degree a decision like that one impacted the industry (or didn't?).Oh well, guess we're all doomed then.:(We're gonna need change sooner or later though...

[N400QW 205]

Well, the devs would get a percentage of the middle man's percentage.I can't help but wonder why it was discarded and to what degree a decision like that one impacted the industry (or didn't?).Oh well, guess we're all doomed then. :( We're gonna need change sooner or later though...

I wasn't present but it was decided long ago the the actual software code would not be owned by consumers but rather a licensed copy, subject to EULAS and other legal restrictions on use would be sold instead.That is the paradigm that we doubt you'll see changed :(

[Mike... 7]

Yeah, I get that... And that doesn't need to change.Say I have an addon, I sell it myself through my site's shop. But it is also being sold at SimMarket and whatnot and oh yeah, Abacus has boxed it up for sale in real stores. I have one boxed Abacus product, it wasn't until years later that I learned the actual developer of the addon was FS Genesis.Now, back to an earlier post, "it would be a release of ownership if we allowed a thirdparty to sell the product as if it were their own". Would that then apply to Abacus and FS Genesis? And if it could apply to them, then certainly it could be made to apply to a secondhand market, where those same parties, SimMarket, Abacus, etc... are controlling it?I wouldn't be selling anything, I would be trading something in and those parties would be licensing it anew.Perfectly clear who owns what, who's in control, and who gets percentages. And again, there would a ban on trade-ins during the first x months of a products release.

[N400QW 205]

Wishfull thinking does not a market make...The scenario you describe includes licensing agreements which would be violated if you were to attempt to "make a market".Suggest you "go to school" on the legal side of what you are dreaming about and even consult an attorney for a better understanding. :(

[Clutch Cargo 385]

Where from a simmer's point of view it seems like a good and logical way to rid of old, un-used, or discarded software - I just picked up an old version of MSFS 4.0 on ebay not even to use but just to add to my little flightsim collection. Someone had an old piece of software they didn't want or use (it is a sealed-unopened copy). and I found something I can no longer purchase commercially anywhere. But I am sure if you look at the details at what just transpired the seller and I were breaking the EULA. It happens on even the biggest of web sites.But from a developer's point of view I don't see much advantage for them. Because you (not you personally), take away a potential sale by selling the same software at a lower price. Why would a developer want to agree to that? I wouldn't.But I still understand your point of view of trying to keep everything "up and above board". Not sure how much this would deter piracy as I believe they tend to go for the latest stuff just released. Not items from say FS2000 that's been gathering dust in the closet.just my thoughts.

[bobbyjack 61]

So...Why is software licensing so different from ,say, a book? If I want to sell or give away an old book, why is that OK, but not for an addon? I don't own the original book, but a copy of it. Remember that it is illegal to photocopy a page from a book. I think it is safe to say that we have all done that. I think Mike's idea of some way to transfer unused software is a good one. Bob

[N60JBravo 27]

Think about this from the viewpoint of the author or the publisher. Do you think they would rather you buy a new or a used copy of their product?And do you think they would get all fired up about expending resources to create a clearinghouse for used copies of their product so they can resell them at what would have to be a very small fraction of profit compared to selling a new copy?And there is a big difference between books and software. When you purchase a book you attain ownership of it and the rights that go along with that. When you buy software what you are really buying is the permission to use the software, not ownership of the software itself. Big difference.I do think Mike's idea has some merit, I just don't see active software developers and publishers standing behind it.If you think about it, what a headache.

It could be simple, remove an order from my account and with it the ability to download a product or see its key if applicable. Add the order to the other guy's account. Perhaps the system could automatically issue a new key, making my key unusable.

Sure sounds simple enough, I don't know if there is a software solution for this in existence or not. If there isn't someone has to develop it. Gotta think this can't be done in 10 minutes. Either way someone then has to implement it and manage it.

Products with EULA's that do not allow for license transfers would obviously not be accepted

So every potential transaction will require the clearinghouse to have access and understanding of the EULA. This would have to be done by a human I would think. And if a developer decides to change their EULA are they requires to pass this info along to the clearinghouse? This is getting complicated.

If they want to, they can pull this off.

This is a big hurdle because I don't see them "wanting".All this being said, I can see potential for some type of clearinghouse that would deal only in products that are no longer available in the marketplace. I, for one, still fly FS9 and would like to obtain some products (think LAGO for example) that are not available anymore.I still see legal issues with that in terms of does an authors rights to a product end when they decide to no longer sell it. The biggest hurdles lie on the legal front, I think, and it will be some time for those to iron themselves out.My fingers are tired, I must go know.thanks for reading,Joe

[bobbyjack 61]

When you buy a book, you do not have complete ownership of it. Open any book. It is registered with the Library of Congress. It is copyrighted. All rights are reserved by the publisher. You can not copy it. You can not quote it. You can not record it. You can't do any of that without permission of the publisher, in writing. You can resell it, and the author and publisher get nothing. The world is full of starving authors who can't make money writing. The same goes for software designers.Bob