Designing must be tough these days Options

[ryanbatcund]

I finished reading a locked thread here and it made me think of a lot of other recent FSX releases.

Customers have A LOT to complain about (I am a customer as well).

I was just cruising through about seven different native FSX releases at various sites and boy, there's sure a lot of negativity: They should have made a turbo version... Why does my G1000 crash? The VC looks like a cartoon! My FPS are HORRIBLE! It doesn't work with my goflight hardware....can you make a patch?

Frankly I'm not quite sure why devs put up with customers, so darn demanding. It's like a product has to be perfectly bug free on release. Considering not even multi-million dollar grossing software titles are perfect on the first time, why do we expect flight sim devs to put forth an incredible amount of effort for something they might make 1000 bucks on?

I think consumers of FSX products should take a step back prior to purchase, and expect something well done - but NOT perfect upon initial release.

Oh, and take a deep breath prior to writing something negative - use tact people...

[Mace]

Yeah, there's nothing like getting nerd-raged in the morning, after you just spent 262 hours designing something.

[N400QW]

I finished reading a locked thread here and it made me think of a lot of other recent FSX releases.
Customers have A LOT to complain about (I am a customer as well).

I was just cruising through about seven different native FSX releases at various sites and boy, there's sure a lot of negativity: They should have made a turbo version... Why does my G1000 crash? The VC looks like a cartoon! My FPS are HORRIBLE! It doesn't work with my goflight hardware....can you make a patch?

Frankly I'm not quite sure why devs put up with customers, so darn demanding. It's like a product has to be perfectly bug free on release. Considering not even multi-million dollar grossing software titles are perfect on the first time, why do we expect flight sim devs to put forth an incredible amount of effort for something they might make 1000 bucks on?

I think consumers of FSX products should take a step back prior to purchase, and expect something well done - but NOT perfect upon initial release.
Oh, and take a deep breath prior to writing something negative - use tact people...

Ryan, contrary to some folks assumption a majority of commercial devs do this because they love aviation. The revenue often does little more than break even.
The attitudes of some in this community would have them summarily dismissed from any good real world FBO Pilots Lounge.

You can usually chalk the attitudes and postings of some up to overblown or childish egos but at times it boils down to outright harmful personal "agendas".
You are correct when you say that no FS product out here is bug free.
We would go a step further and say that none of the highly touted products are perfect in that every feature folks want is not included.
It really boils down to simulated aircraft/avionics in a simulated environment and that folks is not "as real as it gets" despite the marketing hyperbole.

Our advice is to shut down the sim, drive to the local FBO, if licensed go for a flight, if not hang around the PL or watch the activity. Anything to restore a sense of reality as opposed to virtual reality.

[BMG50]

I finished reading a locked thread here and it made me think of a lot of other recent FSX releases.

Customers have A LOT to complain about (I am a customer as well).

I was just cruising through about seven different native FSX releases at various sites and boy, there's sure a lot of negativity: They should have made a turbo version... Why does my G1000 crash? The VC looks like a cartoon! My FPS are HORRIBLE! It doesn't work with my goflight hardware....can you make a patch?

Frankly I'm not quite sure why devs put up with customers, so darn demanding. It's like a product has to be perfectly bug free on release. Considering not even multi-million dollar grossing software titles are perfect on the first time, why do we expect flight sim devs to put forth an incredible amount of effort for something they might make 1000 bucks on?

I think consumers of FSX products should take a step back prior to purchase, and expect something well done - but NOT perfect upon initial release.

Oh, and take a deep breath prior to writing something negative - use tact people...

Very,very well said and I agree!!!....Lou

[N400QW]

Yeah, there's nothing like getting nerd-raged in the morning, after you just spent 262 hours designing something.

We feel ya' Mace.

[ryanbatcund]

Our advice is to shut down the sim, drive to the local FBO, if licensed go for a flight, if not hang around the PL or watch the activity. Anything to restore a sense of reality as opposed to virtual reality.

And that's one reason I love my job hah

Sometimes I think about FS, then realize how much I miss RW flying.... The FPS are much better anyway

[N400QW]

And that's one reason I love my job hah
Sometimes I think about FS, then realize how much I miss RW flying.... The FPS are much better anyway

Ha ha, and the resolution is amazing.

[snave]

To take the opposite view: The desire to do something is not sufficient justification for foisting a chargeable product on the Great Unwashed, and what makes anyone think FS developers are immune from the laws of supply and demand?

There are far too many wishful-thinking products out there that don't even live up to their own hype, much less the adoration of the admiring purchasers.

There's a recession on, and so any developer that's after making money had better wise-up and realise that fobbing off substandard tat ain't going to cut in todays' market.

If the consumers are becoming better informed and more demanding, then the solution is to make the products right the first time, listen to the customers and provide full and proper support in line with the expectations of the audience.

If those expectations were truly unrealistic, then developers should not develop. The fact that they do suggests that the consumer is right, the developers who fail to heed are wrong, and they then deserve every single criticism they get.. .

It's a bugger being involved in the Luxury spend market in the current economic climate, and if you aren't up to the job, please leave by the nearest exit.

[N400QW]

Couldn't agree more Snave. That is the very reason we offer a no questions 30 day refund option. That clearly frees us from the "foisting" allegation.
Those who do foist substandard on unsophisticated and unsuspecting folks do indeed deserve what they receive.
On the other hand, this ain't our first rodeo and we've endured, and watched our fellow devs endure, some of the most ludicrous, childish, and outright falsehoods ever perpetrated.

Add to the insult by stealing and then asking support and some days the blood boils.
Further to the point, those who steal and are denied support often run off to public forums with their thinly disguised agendas and you have a community that not only stunts its own growth but actually attempts to eat its own young.
Not a very pretty picture but until certain offendors mend their ways the "sense of community" will continue to decline.

[diajohn2]

The internet contains a lot of hostility and child like actions by many. It doesn't matter if it is FS related, review of a lovely Caribbean Resort or cell phones, computers and anything. Some can never say good comments and I have learned to take a holistic approach when reading reviews and comments on forums. There are bullies, jerks and just those who may have had a bad experience often of their own making.

Remember this is a world that loves McDonald's, isn't able to read a newspaper and frequently don't even know how their government works. Read forum comments as if you were walking in the park. Most of the path is clear but there are places where a dog's poop lies in wait. Just don't walk there.

[N400QW]

The internet contains a lot of hostility and child like actions by many. It doesn't matter if it is FS related, review of a lovely Caribbean Resort or cell phones, computers and anything. Some can never say good comments and I have learned to take a holistic approach when reading reviews and comments on forums. There are bullies, jerks and just those who may have had a bad experience often of their own making.

Remember this is a world that loves McDonald's, isn't able to read a newspaper and frequently don't even know how their government works. Read forum comments as if you were walking in the park. Most of the path is clear but there are places where a dog's poop lies in wait. Just don't walk there.

Ha ha, now that sir is sound advice.

[irocx]

Good topic and timing Ryan - very well stated by you (and everyone here.)

After starting to dabble in some scenery design and repainting, I realized just how much time, dedication and skill it really takes to make it "all come together". It's led to an even deeper appreciation of the talented folks from Aces, Orbyx, ESDG, PMDG etc, etc. Those people must do it for the love and the passion they have regarding aviation and flight simulation and I'm certain that these folks shoot for nothing short of perfection in every project they undertake. I try to do the same in my business but in stark reality things rarely, if ever, turn out "perfect" for everyone, no matter how hard you try.

While to me it's acceptable and very useful for users to express their opinions about addons here in the forums, I agree that hopefully before they post, they try to realize, understand and appreciate the efforts and investment required to even release these creations.

[kiwikat]

I finished reading a locked thread here and it made me think of a lot of other recent FSX releases.

Customers have A LOT to complain about (I am a customer as well).

I was just cruising through about seven different native FSX releases at various sites and boy, there's sure a lot of negativity: They should have made a turbo version... Why does my G1000 crash? The VC looks like a cartoon! My FPS are HORRIBLE! It doesn't work with my goflight hardware....can you make a patch?

Frankly I'm not quite sure why devs put up with customers, so darn demanding. It's like a product has to be perfectly bug free on release. Considering not even multi-million dollar grossing software titles are perfect on the first time, why do we expect flight sim devs to put forth an incredible amount of effort for something they might make 1000 bucks on?

I think consumers of FSX products should take a step back prior to purchase, and expect something well done - but NOT perfect upon initial release.

Oh, and take a deep breath prior to writing something negative - use tact people...

I really meant it a while back when I said I wouldn't post in any section of the AVSIM forum besides the PMDG support, but I'll break my rule just this once. I'm sure I'll regret it... lol

I know that "turbo version" has to do with my comment on SOH about the Carenado Saratoga. How is that negative? There is absolutely nothing negative about it. I never said their product was bad because they didn't make a turbo version. I took a few hours of MY time and came up with a cfg that makes it turbo so I can do my hoplist with it. I never demanded that Carenado do it for me. I do demand that they fix their mapping PROBLEMS. Yes, PROBLEMS that the developer should have caught in development or beta testing.

As for that locked thread, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what was said. For the reasons the disappointed customers specified and I suspected, I will not be purchasing that product either.

If you guys want to "understand and appreciate the efforts and investment required to even release these creations", become a beta tester. It will open your eyes. I post criticism rather regularly for a reason. I know things can be done better. As a tester, I EXPECT them to be better.

Developers have to put up with customers, otherwise they won't have a job. Simple as that. Anyone that has ever held a job where you interact with the public in any form will know that.

[rservice]

I really meant it a while back when I said I wouldn't post in any section of the AVSIM forum besides the PMDG support, but I'll break my rule just this once. I'm sure I'll regret it... lol

I know that "turbo version" has to do with my comment on SOH about the Carenado Saratoga. How is that negative? There is absolutely nothing negative about it. I never said their product was bad because they didn't make a turbo version. I took a few hours of MY time and came up with a cfg that makes it turbo so I can do my hoplist with it. I never demanded that Carenado do it for me. I do demand that they fix their mapping PROBLEMS. Yes, PROBLEMS that the developer should have caught in development or beta testing.

As for that locked thread, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what was said. For the reasons the disappointed customers specified and I suspected, I will not be purchasing that product either.

If you guys want to "understand and appreciate the efforts and investment required to even release these creations", become a beta tester. It will open your eyes. I post criticism rather regularly for a reason. I know things can be done better. As a tester, I EXPECT them to be better.

Developers have to put up with customers, otherwise they won't have a job. Simple as that. Anyone that has ever held a job where you interact with the public in any form will know that.

Customers also have to put up with major developers like Microsoft who never seem to finish a product like Windows version whatever.I do appreciate all the developers in the FS world however,
who for the most part give a good effort to produce addons for a limited market.It is up to the customer to read reviews and examine what is offered to make an informed decision before they buy.
Ron

[Astradan]

I'm not so sure it's customers who drive up the expectations, it's often competing developers.

When something like the latest PMDG release comes out, everything changes. The bar is raised. Customers are literally given everything they wanted and a whole lot more. When other releases come that are way behind that 'state of the art', or that lack key features that are provided with the majority of releases, clearly customers' will be disappointed and their expectations will not be met.

Everything in the world these days in driven by hyper-capitalism. Consumers often get a raw deal and can be treated like nothing more than the 'next dime' sometimes. So it's only natural that customers are pushing back and demanding value and quality from those they pass their hard-earned money to.

I'd also add that the Flight 1 refund policy is exemplary. What better confidence can a consumer be given than a no quibble guarantee like this. It's awesome, I wish the other publishers and devs would have as much confidence in their products.

@kiwikat - Respect for your comments!

[CODY614]

May I ask a basic question,not wanting to start a fight...
As this thread does pose some interesting comments.
Why then it is o-kay for friends of the dev's to coming roaring into a thread and "Have their buddies back?"
When you have a good wholesome thread going on and you are discussing problems with some new payware...These 'Buddies' can turn a good thread into an all out fight......
Remember....I'm asking a question....I too for the most part sit back and watch these threads go south all of the time.If you release a product and then continue to say there is nothing wrong...then there is something wrong with that...yes?
Now take into account that no 2 customers are the same...computer wise and such,some of the problems can stem from add-on's and other things.
Some times people don't even read "FSX with Acceleration needed" then go off half cocked in a support forum because the $30.00 add on they just bought doesn't work and they don't have Acceleration installed!

So given that...Why don't dev's take a harder look at "Beta Testing" more...I know they won't catch everything...But lately some of the products offered are lacking in the QC department.

The statement "The VC looks like a cartoon! " is what grabbed me the most...Now understand,please...But it does! And when you say to several customers/potential customers....
"We may indeed produce a wartime scratched, faded baked texture look at a later date but the decision was taken to go with the look we see in the real thing as per the restored examples."
That just seems wrong...To me any way...Why not include PSD's for the cockpit?
I am re-painter at heart!
And when you go and try and do a re-paint and start running into panel lines that don't line up or mesh/UV Mapping errors these are the things that drive me nut's! Sometimes just looking at a beta model from a painters view would be nice!

The dev's cant' be all things to all customers...I get that...And for the most part the majority of the companies turn out excellent products and customer service.
Sometimes they have to take the heat..to a point yes...but they have to go into it knowing there are going to be problems.
Some deal with it only by e-mail and you must have all your purchase info in the e-mail ,some do it in forums...and then some don't answer at all...
I can count on one hand the companies I know I can trust for solid payware. And yes certain companies keep raising the 'Bar' I only wish others would. Good heavens...there are people doing 'Freeware' that should be payware,and vice versa.

I almost deleted what I said here 3 times...but every body here has made some good solid comment's! And this is just my 2 cent's from a painters view....So I'll get off my soap box and go stand in the paint booth....


Jeff

[N400QW]

As for that locked thread, there is absolutely nothing wrong with what was said. For the reasons the disappointed customers specified and I suspected, I will not be purchasing that product either.

Ha Ha, the mods here obviously disagree with your opinion that "there is nothing wrong with what was said."
The beauty of the marketplace is that potential customers have many choices and they have the right to make those choices without coercian from others.
The often humerous issue within the FS Community is that folks make purchase decisions based on what "joe blow" posted and never find out for themselves whether a product is suitable for their own taste or system.
This, in itself, could be construed as a form of coercion.

[WarpD]

When someone posts about a product, truth and honesty is the most important aspect. When someone refuses to maintain truth and honesty when they are posting, then things go bad. Horribly bad. At that point the individual or individuals are persuing an agenda which serves absolutely no one in a positive fashion. However, they rarely care because they're not concerned with offering anything positive to anyone at all.

As for those who think one developer 'sets the bar' for all others... might wanna back off the 'goof juice'. Seriously. There isn't a single developer out there that works under that premise. Not one.

[yellowjack]

Ha ha, and the resolution is amazing.

So is the Cost!

[mjrhealth]

Oh yes, i must thank all the developers out there for the wonderfull work they do, none of us are perfect, wouldnt it be nice if all these complainers would try desigining a plane fisrt and making it work on every conceiveable variation of hardware software, well it wont happen. Our society is getting more and more selfish, they want to buy a car and beable to drive it wothout putting fuel in the tank, it is always " everyone elses fault first", and they refuse to accept that they might have done something wrong, even if the product works on everyone elses pc. S oagain i thank all you developers. only ever bought one plane i thurughly diliked, just deleted it off my pc. FSX is so much more than FS9 and only getting better.
Thanks guys.

[FLighT01]

The internet contains a lot of hostility and child like actions by many. It doesn't matter if it is FS related, review of a lovely Caribbean Resort or cell phones, computers and anything. Some can never say good comments and I have learned to take a holistic approach when reading reviews and comments on forums. There are bullies, jerks and just those who may have had a bad experience often of their own making.

Remember this is a world that loves McDonald's, isn't able to read a newspaper and frequently don't even know how their government works. Read forum comments as if you were walking in the park. Most of the path is clear but there are places where a dog's poop lies in wait. Just don't walk there.

How true. The thing about bullies is they tend to be cowards when stood up to in person, eyeball to eyeball, and are afraid of the smell of their own blood.

[Christopher Low]

Further to the point, those who steal and are denied support often run off to public forums with their thinly disguised agendas and you have a community that not only stunts its own growth but actually attempts to eat its own young.

IMO, anyone who steals payware products (ie. downloads illegal copies from the internet) can't be considered to be part of the FS community.

[kerosene31]

I think simply as prices have gone up, and selection has gone down, that irritability has gone up and patience has gone down. I'm not justifying either side, but clearly there is frustration over the state of our hobby right now. While our add-on developers do great work, we could use a few more great devs in addition to the ones we have now.

That said I think there is a sub-set of flight simmers who jump on products the nanosecond they are released. They jump in the pool without dipping their toes in first and then are mad when the water isn't quite the temperature they were expecting.

Not that people shouldn't expect value for their dollar, but I think some could greatly benefit from waiting a day or two and letting others test the waters.

I usually wait on most add-ons. Waiting a day or two at the most (even a few hours) usually gives you a great picture of what it is about.

Honestly I think in all my years of buying add-ons I've used Flight1's great return policy once. I've been buying add-ons since FS98 so I think that says a lot.

This hobby simply would not exist without the great work of add-on developers.

[ryanbatcund]

I think simply as prices have gone up, and selection has gone down, that irritability has gone up and patience has gone down. I'm not justifying either side, but clearly there is frustration over the state of our hobby right now.

Well said. This is sometimes how I feel...

[stevem72]

I absolutely agree - to me its not only prices going up etc etc, but my disposable income going down, for what is a hobby in the economic climate.

I not only expect value for money, but i now DEMAND it and in order to meet that need, I feel that the onus is not only on the devs to produce quality work, its also very much on me to "research" a potential purchase to ensure it "fits the bill" in terms of quality/support/reputation etc.

I also try and bear in mind how much more likely we/people are to complain about a product than to praise it - think about it, when was the last time you (and yes that includes me!!) posted on a support forum just to say nothing else other than how fantastic/flawless/great that add-on you just purchased was???