I am starting to really dislike the commercial members

[McCrash 3]

in defense of or for pushing their product. And some of these threads turn into, well, basically flame-fests.Just my two cents.Oh, and purchasers should also make their comments and opinions at known at the commercial members websites too.

[duckbilled 310]

I don't mind their involvement. I think it is a positive addition to the forums.That being said, I think two things should change.1. All commercial members should be required to list the company they represent. I have seen a few that are listed as commercial members but I couldn't figure out which company they were from.2. All of their comments should be considered the views of the company the represent. I have seen a few that state that their views do not represent the view of company X. IMHO, if you are going to make public statements and you are affiliated with a vendor, your words should be considered as the opinion of that vendor. You really can't have it both ways. You are either here for business purposes are private purposes, not both.

[Tabs 2,790]

Jeff,I disagree that I or anyone else in my position of working for a developer shouldn't be allowed to have a personal opinion separate from that of the company I work for. I'm still a simmer who buys tons of addons that aren't made by PMDG and that's ridiculous to say I'm not allowed to have an opinion about them or that anything I say equals the PMDG company saying it. If I'm paying for other addons, I think I have every right to compliment or criticize them, I'm a customer just like you at that point. The vast majority of my posts about other products have been complimentary if you search my post history here. (see the recent ERJ, Dreamfleet stuff, Leonardo Maddog, Level-D etc) I can only think of a couple instances where I really took a product to task, and in one particular case the company did largely make good on adding several features I thought were inexcusably missing from a product at that price point. I usually remove my PMDG signature from my posts when making such personal comments too, precisely to separate myself from people thinking it's the company speaking.And McCrash - you don't really expect a developer to stay silent when they see someone spreading false information about their product do you?

[WarpD 824]

I was a user here for years, not a commercial member.I'm a customer who purchases addons.Telling me I can't have a voice is unfair and unrealistic.

[David Roch 1,982]

Guys, I am quoting here what Geof said in another post.I 100% share his opinion."I am fully for having developers participate in this forum. I think that is good for all.There are two fine lines we have to walk every day: 1) what a developer considers bashing, what a consumer considers a just critique, and which is valid. 2) What is considered information about a product, and what is advertising and pumping by a manufacturer or a planted shill.1) Is usually pretty easy to decide-though usually the consumer and the developer is not happy one way or the other with the result in between the two extremes2) Is often more difficult-but we do our best to figure it outFrankly, I think we do a pretty good job here of balancing the two, and I think the membership numbers show it. What other sites do is their business. It is no secret this is how it is done here." Now,FS development is an extremely difficult venture these days (as you may well know) with questionable margins and returns. Add to that the demise of the Aces team as well as the huge increase of competitors whether they are quality vendors or not. It seems as if almost everyday you hear of another person or company coming out with something. There are only so many FS dollars that can be spread across this minute audience. Without speaking about piracy...I can perfectly understand that devs react here when they feel attacked by few folks (most of us respect and understand their work though) that want more and more, that sometimes become more aggressive too about their demands and look for any opportunity to vent, having no idea of the constraints that it takes to produce a quality product.So please, be tolerant, try to understand both parties as we, Admins, try to do daily.Thx.PS: Moving this thread to the Hangar chat!

[Guest PPSFA]

So you are saying it's ok for people to come here and trash products, usually with erronous information, but the folks who built them aren't to be allowed to clarify? Seems a bit one sided to me!Disclaimer: I am not a 'commercial member' but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once!

[N400QW 205]

Jeff,I disagree that I or anyone else in my position of working for a developer shouldn't be allowed to have a personal opinion separate from that of the company I work for. I'm still a simmer who buys tons of addons that aren't made by PMDG and that's ridiculous to say I'm not allowed to have an opinion about them or that anything I say equals the PMDG company saying it. If I'm paying for other addons, I think I have every right to compliment or criticize them, I'm a customer just like you at that point. The vast majority of my posts about other products have been complimentary if you search my post history here. (see the recent ERJ, Dreamfleet stuff, Leonardo Maddog, Level-D etc) I can only think of a couple instances where I really took a product to task, and in one particular case the company did largely make good on adding several features I thought were inexcusably missing from a product at that price point. I usually remove my PMDG signature from my posts when making such personal comments too, precisely to separate myself from people thinking it's the company speaking.And McCrash - you don't really expect a developer to stay silent when they see someone spreading false information about their product do you?

Ryan, we concur. Folks seem to forget that commercial devs are fellow FS Enthusiasts first and wear Commercial Developer hats secondly. Further to the point, we are fellow human beings who happen to love aviation just as other users do. The fact that commercial devs are painted with a broad brush and are expected to behave in some un human manner is a bit over the top. :(

[Guest lgvpilot1]

It seems to me that most , if not all commercial members are serious simmers.Who else would bother with the time, effort and inevitable flak ? :( To deny them their "simmers" opinion is unreasonable , unfair and just plain wrong But I understand when they come to the defence of their product especially when it is just a thread about "bashing the product , and half the time the poster of such threads has made no effort to gain support from the product web sites.I cant see how a developer is left with any other choice but to respond .Mark* not a developer ,not possessing the time, skills or talent *

[N400QW 205]

So you are saying it's ok for people to come here and trash products, usually with erronous information, but the folks who built them aren't to be allowed to clarify? Seems a bit one sided to me!Disclaimer: I am not a 'commercial member' but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once!

Jay, the mods here have a tough job.Jeremy, Geof, David, and the rest have to deal with some "really of the wall" opinions and some strict policies.The fair and balanced judgement calls they must make here are a testament to their dedication to the flight simulation community.The implication by some is that commercial devs should not participate at Avsim at all but if they do so they should be held to a disadvantaged position.This is not new in the FS community. Fact is, the bashers do nothing to grow the hobby.Newcomers here would turn and run to the nearest exit wondering what the heck have I gotten myself into here. :(

[David Roch 1,982]

Ryan, we concur. Folks seem to forget that commercial devs are fellow FS Enthusiasts first and wear Commercial Developer hats secondly. Further to the point, we are fellow human beings who happen to love aviation just as other users do. The fact that commercial devs are painted with a broad brush and are expected to behave in some un human manner is a bit over the top. :(

Well, I understand Ryan's position but I must add something, with your permission.You are still simmers but whatever word you will say "against" a product with your simmer's hat will always been read as a competitor trying to preach for his interests.That's why I would recommand refraining from speaking about competitors products (aircrafts/aircrafts or scenery/scenery or environment/environment) as much as you can to avoid conflicts and forumers legitimate exasperation.

[Guest PPSFA]

Jay, the mods here have a tough job.Jeremy, Geof, David, and the rest have to deal with some "really of the wall" opinions and some strict policies.The fair and balanced judgement calls they must make here are a testament to their dedication to the flight simulation community.The implication by some is that commercial devs should not participate at Avsim at all but if they do so they should be held to a disadvantaged position.This is not new in the FS community. Fact is, the bashers do nothing to grow the hobby.Newcomers here would turn and run to the nearest exit wondering what the heck have I gotten myself into here. :(

Ron, I am siding with you, read it again :( I deal with this daily in the forums I moderate, and usually it's ME they are complaining about. :(My solution is the use two accounts, one as 'HQ' and one as private, that way I can say what I want when I want, in both 'hats'

[David Roch 1,982]

Jay, the mods here have a tough job.Jeremy, Geof, David, and the rest have to deal with some "really of the wall" opinions and some strict policies.The fair and balanced judgement calls they must make here are a testament to their dedication to the flight simulation community.The implication by some is that commercial devs should not participate at Avsim at all but if they do so they should be held to a disadvantaged position.This is not new in the FS community. Fact is, the bashers do nothing to grow the hobby.Newcomers here would turn and run to the nearest exit wondering what the heck have I gotten myself into here. :(

Ron , I think Jay was answering to the OP, not to me:--)

[Guest PPSFA]

Ron , I think Jay was answering to the OP, not to me:--)

Exactamondo!

[N400QW 205]

Ron , I think Jay was answering to the OP, not to me:--)

And so he is. Sorry for the misread. I'll go slower I promise. :(

[N400QW 205]

Well, I understand Ryan's position but I must add something, with your permission.You are still simmers but whatever word you will say "against" a product with your simmer's hat will always been read as a competitor trying to preach for his interests.That's why I would recommand refraining from speaking about competitors products (aircrafts/aircrafts or scenery/scenery or environment/environment) as much as you can to avoid conflicts and forumers legitimate exasperation.

Fair enough. It is rare that we ever post about other devs except to support their efforts with a positive response.In the past there have been a couple of posts contrary to that policy and those we regret.These days, we and other commercial devs seem to have been confronted with the "anti commercial devs" crowd and if I were a newcomer I would be wondering what the so called "FS Community" is all about. :(